A World Without a God

Well, you see this is why these discussions usually don't last long. It's because the atheist side is so brutally aggressive and hostile it often causes the theists to start flinging around profanities and get all butthurt because their beliefs are challenged. I've heard all these arguments before, and yeah, they're pretty frustrating. And they're really good arguments, and they're often really fun to talk through. However, a lot of atheists think it's appropriate to take the Dawkins approach: militant atheism, the idea that the only way to destroy the horrible idea of faith is to attack it at a juvenile level. Please, try to keep your arguments civil. I understand that there's a lot that's hard to understand about religion, but that's no reason to present your argument in such a hostile manner.

Sure, sometimes Christians do the same thing. They get out their picket signs and wave em around screaming "yall are goin to hell!" like good southern baptists, but they really not practicing their faith very well if they're honest with themselves. And there's perfectly civil ways we can have discussions about these topics without getting all riled up.

A lot of what Clinthor writes can almost be taken as direct quotes from Dawkins. Dawkins is very famous for writing "The God Delusion", "The Blind Watchmaker", and several other books that attack Christianity. Why he is so offended by Christianity, I'll never know. However, here is a guy that has been picked apart by the scientific community for lacing his arguments with emotional bias and very poor research. This isn't the Christian community, I said the secular scientific community. The book "The Dawkins Delusion" was a rebuttal written by Dr. Alister McGrath, a man who is in high standing in both the scientific community, and the Christian community. Wikipedia says that he has both doctorates in the sciences and theology. Wikipedia being Wikipedia, you'll have to do some of the research yourself. However, Wikipedia has quite a good summary of the book, including a sampling of the litany of errors that is in Dawkins book. The actual book is much better however.

Of course, this doesn't answer why an all powerful, all knowing, and benevolent God would let our world be so terrible. Not only that, why would a benevolent God ACTIVELY partake in the destruction of millions of people? It causes one to wonder and to question, which is a really good thing. However, the problem starts when you criticize the answers before you even hear them. Atheists say "Why does bad happen? Why did God kill people? Why is Jesus the only way? Why would God send people to Hell?" And then, without waiting to hear for the answers, they immediately denounce Christianity as a load of crap and walk off. It's fairly insulting, not only personally to Christians, but also intellectually on the part of atheists.

As for the part about religion being used to misguide people, you're right. To a point. Certainly, religion is used to misguide people all the time. My own aunt and uncle think their mother is possessed because their church told them so. It's terribly sad. My cousins can't even see their grandmother because of it. Religion is often the cause of so much tragedy. It's caused wars, genocide, and it's split so many families and homes.

Of course, one has to take into consideration that there's a distinct difference between "religion" and "faith". Religion is a practice, a set of traditions, codes and rules that one follows. This may include regular church attendance, prayer, "holy book" reading, and even prostration. Le gasp. And religion is a vehicle for a lot of things. It allows pastors (pastures) to fill their congregations heads with ideas, granted the congregation checks their brains at the door. Sadly many do.

Faith is a belief in the unseen. It's trust in something or someone. In Sunday school when I was a kid they had an exercise for us to do. One of the kids would wear a blindfold, and another would lead him around the room. The kid wearing the blindfold would have to practice faith in the other child to get him through the obstacles safely. Dawkins would call this brainwashing, I call it a pretty fun game. But really faith is people putting their trust in a God they can't see to help them through their lives and keep them from doing things they don't want to do. Can this be misdirected? Absolutely. Can it be a good thing? Absolutely. Can it be self destructive? Absolutely. Can it be weird to other people? Absolutely. Can it be extremely beneficial to a person and those around him/her? Absolutely!

The problems arise when people check their brains at the door. People that walk into church or read their bible without a critical eye aren't practicing their faith very well. It requires thought as well as faith. Faith and humility to appreciate the fact that we can't understand everything (something Dawkins once said about scientists), and intelligence enough to understand that not everything we hear or read is true, at least with our current understanding of it. So when a young seminary student find a passage in the Bible he doesn't understand or disagrees with, he doesn't just chuck it out as a falsehood or something he should just take on faith. He questions it, criticizes it, and does the research. Now if that research led them to something utterly contradictory and damning to the Christian faith, would the Christian faith still exist?

This is something that I think atheists would benefit from. Instead of looking at something they don't understand and dismissing it, they could of course just take the time to do unbiased research on the subject. Dawkin's book could certainly have used a little more research, and his arguments would have been much stronger if he had.

So when I read the old testament and I read about God killing people off, I was appalled. Why? Why would God do that? Doesn't he love them? But instead of dropping my Bible like a hot iron, I kept reading, and I read other books from researchers. I asked my dad what he thought, did research on the interwebs, and tried to find out WHY!

These are my thoughts for now. But try to think on em. I'll probably post some of the answers I've found to these tough questions later. Right now I wanna play some games and do homework

I think Christianity has been given a really bad name by the millions of idiots out there.
I'm not saying that believing in god makes you an idiot. But the blind following does.
Adrian, you are one of the few exceptions. I respect you a great deal because you do research you look at the bible and question it, do research, etc.
A lot of people don't. Many times in high school I'd try to have this conversation. I just love talking about it. But I'd say 90% of the time, the Christians had no argument. They knew nothing. Clearly they hadn't read the bible. All they'd say is I was going to hell hell for questioning the word of god, and that because I didn't have faith in god, I'd burn for the rest of eternity.

I asked if this was the case for everyone. They'd say yes. So what about the people in developing countries who were never exposed to Christianity. Who've never heard of our god. Are they going to hell too? They'd say yes. Now how is that fair?

Another thing that bothers me is when belief gets in the way of law.
It's 2011 and we still don't have separation of church and state. Gays can't get married because the bible says so, right? Well why don't we have slavery? Because the bible says that's okay...Or why are women allowed to vote, because in gods eyes, women are less than men.
Why do we ignore some parts of the bible and strictly follow others?

It's not ok to run a stop sign and only stop at red lights.

That's all I have to say for now. I'm gonna go play some minecraft!

i didn't think my post was aggressive or hostile, and if it was i didn't intend for it to be. I didn't quote Dawkins, i don't even own the book(probably should). I didn't know my arguments mirrored his so much that you would think i was quoting his book. I think that calling it militant atheism is a bit of an exaggeration as we are not violent, and don't go to churches throwing bricks at people or anything. this is exactly way i should of just stayed out of this. Nobody knows what happens when you die, it's out of the fear of the unknown that gods are born. I will still never follow something that does not judge people for their deeds, but for their worship, i don't know how anyone does.

Clinthor wrote:Nobody knows what happens when you die.

just use some tasty eschatological reasoning: the atheist goes through life thinking there is no god and thinking there is nothing after, when he dies he will only know if he is wrong. However, the believer will go through life thinking that there is a heaven and if he is wrong then he wont know, but if he is right then it's pretty tasty

What if, when you die whatever you believe will happen.

Apparently you go through a massive hallucination when you die. This could well be the heaven or hell you create, whatever you died believing is what you'll be dreaming true.

Blind_Merc wrote:What if, when you die whatever you believe will happen.

Apparently you go through a massive hallucination when you die. This could well be the heaven or hell you create, whatever you died believing is what you'll be dreaming true.

then surely it is best to believe in a benevolent, omnipotent, all forgiving God?

Applebeard wrote:

Clinthor wrote:Nobody knows what happens when you die.

just use some tasty eschatological reasoning: the atheist goes through life thinking there is no god and thinking there is nothing after, when he dies he will only know if he is wrong. However, the believer will go through life thinking that there is a heaven and if he is wrong then he wont know, but if he is right then it's pretty tasty

thats no reason to believe in something, are you also purposing that i start believing 2012 is the end of the world just incase?

Clinthor wrote:

Applebeard wrote:

Clinthor wrote:Nobody knows what happens when you die.

just use some tasty eschatological reasoning: the atheist goes through life thinking there is no god and thinking there is nothing after, when he dies he will only know if he is wrong. However, the believer will go through life thinking that there is a heaven and if he is wrong then he wont know, but if he is right then it's pretty tasty

thats no reason to believe in something, are you also purposing that i start believing 2012 is the end of the world just incase?

I am not proposing that anyone believe in anything, i am simply following the logical path. Also another thought to put out there is that proving God is paradoxical. As Kierkergaard says " if i am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because i cannot do this, i must belive." In otherwords, the opposite of faith is not doubt, but is certainty.

bah adrian why do you not respond to me, i didn't think my post was insensitive or hostile, where is the debate i thought would spawn from this? plus i havent seen you on in like a week!

Clinthor wrote:bah adrian why do you not respond to me, i didn't think my post was insensitive or hostile, where is the debate i thought would spawn from this? plus i havent seen you on in like a week!

Didn't he take a break due to griefers in awaiting for the server to be complete?

he did? why didnt he tell me!

Clinthor wrote:he did? why didnt he tell me!

Lol, can't remember which post he did.

Actually I think a lot of the older members are going in-active for a little while.

bah they would, why the fuck arent you online lol

Clinthor wrote:bah they would, why the fuck arent you online lol

Online in the forum or game?