A World Without a God

Have fun.

Yeah, that's basically what I rationalized when I was a kid.

LawL? Srsly, people that rationalize like this are a little silly, since they obviously have little idea who this God is. God isn't there to make your life easy or keep everything bad from happening, even though you'd like it to be that way.

Also, as he's sitting there imagining what a world would be like without God, I can imagine a little bit myself. Of course, this is from the perspective I have as a Christian. The God I believe in has shaped history in many ways, so lets see what happens when I take him out of the picture.

One, monotheism wouldn't exist. Meaning there would probably never have been any sort of monotheistic religion besides those set up by dictators. During Biblical history (the really old stuff in the Old Testament) the only monotheistic religion was the one God himself was making in the Hebrew people, the Israelites. If He hadn't done that, then the religions of the world would have remained as they were. Polytheistic, hedonistic, and anarchic. Pretty scary actually, considering things like child sacrifice and public orgies were the worship style in fashion. Imagine if that had been allowed to continue throughout history without the Israelites stepping in. I don't see how a big turnaround would happen spontaneously.

Two, the world wouldn't exist. As much evidence as there is for evolution, which is comparable to the evidence gathered for creation, I simply can't accept that we spontaneously appeared out of nothingness. My brain can't wrap itself around the idea that I'm the product of millions of years of evolution that started as a speck of space goop. I don't like the idea that I'm a chunk of meat with no more purpose than to hump a few chicks and create the next generation. Whoop de doo, sex is all that matters, it all makes sense now. I'm not an animal.

Three, there would be no good in the world. The Bible states that all good things come from God (James 1:17). So if the God I believe in doesn't exist, then there would be no good things. To a cynic, or as some might say, a "realist", this makes little difference, since everything he sees is corrupted. Thankfully his eyes are not as open as he might think. Imagine a world without light, laughter, or love. Imagine a world without kindness, without generosity or selflessness. Imagine a world without friends or family. Imagine a world without sports, science, culture, and history. Imagine a world without grass, trees, pets, clouds, or lakes. That's the world I imagine if all good things were gone. That's what I imagine when I think of of a world without God.

Of course, I can't put myself in this guy's shoes. I can't see things the way he sees them. I can't be openly optimistic about a world that's so full of all the bad things we humans are responsible for like he is, or ignore all the wrong things I have done. And I can't imagine being in his position NOT believing in God, since at that point I don't see any reason for my life, or for this world to exist at all. Weird huh?

You're right, that was fun.

Here is a graph I made.

Oops, rename mentally Truth with Understanding.



Science may come close to the truth, but it won't. Until then, religion will still be there, probably on the other side of the axis too.

Gah, my brain exploded trying to think of all the ways to interpret it.

really is this a thread we want to start? you cant argue religion with someone and win, I've tried a great multitude of time. They will always have some way to rationalize their beliefs despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary.

I want to post something, but it might make this server go "AFASFASFSADFA SDF ASDDFASF SDAFASDFSDF AG" again so I won't. I would like to say I am a atheist though.

I think we should avoid posting about religion in the world due to the fact you can screw over a whole forum community due to disagreements.

Tho being brought up in a Christian cult, I have a twisted view of what I see and believe in both the real world, and religion. It's hard to think of it either way as I was brought up in a place were they seem to brainwash you that the world is evil, that no one is your true friend. I than left the cult and entered the world, were everything twisted the other way, the cult was evil, they aren't your friends.

What I'm getting at, is people should believe what they want, but unless they've got a forum or whatever else dedicated to their beliefs, I believe we should not post this.

AdrianRedd wrote:Pretty scary actually, considering things like child sacrifice and public orgies were the worship style in fashion.

I thought everyone loved public orgies?

My two cents about religion as a Christian is that...
...you can't get something from nothing. No matter how you look at it, some kind of God must have made the world.

Let's take a common theory that the Big Bang started the world. I'm fine with that theory.
...Who started the Big Bang?
If the thing that started the big bang was a condensed version of the universe, then where did that come from?

Mmmm. I'm thinking of locking this thread. There is no way to win this kind of discussion, unless you're not trying to win.

Never mind. Carry on.

You're the only repeat poster here. Who's trying to 'win' anything?

No one is saying not to believe in god, just asking you to imagine what life would be like with out god.

Theres nothing wrong with discussions like this. Little brain stimulation never hurt anyone.

I agree Bryn.

Sometimes I feel like atheists consider me less intelligent because I believe in God. I often feel judged by them, and sometimes it's embarrassing to share my beliefs. However, I'm sure many atheists feel the same way around Christians.

Yeah a lot of atheists say that believing in god is stupid because there is no evidence to prove there is a god, but there is no evidence to prove there isn't a god either.
I'm not saying I do believe in god, I'm not saying I don't. But I find religion fascinating and I love hearing the beliefs of others, I've learned a lot from listening.

But anyway, the way I see it, religion has done a lot of good and it's done a lot of harm as well. Take the crusades for example. So many innocent lives were taken in the name of god.
Or lets look at the divine right of kings (if you don't know what that is, go back to school, knowing nothing about history is a sad thing). People have taken advantage over the fact the people believe in god. When only god can judge a king, and people have no say, things go bad.

It's even more sad to think about how much the church has oppressed science through out history. So many scientist were scared to speak their minds, and share their findings because they also believed in god. Darwin waited to publish the Origin of Species because he knew he'd be condemned for it.
Imagine how many discoveries never came to light due to fear? Perhaps we have learned them now, but what if we didn't?

What about when Columbus sailed on the Americas, calling the native people savages. Columbus stated that the native people looked at him like he was a god, so he took advantage of that fact. We all know what happened next...

I for one hate the idea of destiny. That my path is chosen, and no matter what turns I take, I will end up in the same place. I'm not sure what I believe, but I know that I love doing good. I love helping people, and cynics make me sick.

I like the idea of Deism. For those who don't know, deism if the belief that a god, a supreme being, created the earth, and stood aside. Deists believe in the presence of god but don't believe he has any say in what goes on. He doesn't give people diseases, basically he doesn't intervene.

I think Sevyn put it perfectly with that graph. There is a lot we don't know people turn to science and religion for that.

In a perfect world religion and science will merge into one. Well in my perfect world anyway.

F***ing churchs. Stupid religion ruin my life!

Well now you're just making a fool of yourself Blind. Read the thread first, and don't troll just to inflate your post count.

Indeed Bryn, some atheists don't seem to understand how hurtful they can be. After all, we're only poor theists, and can't fully understand the enlightened state of unbelief. So why should we have feelings? We must have checked them at the door to chapel.

When it comes to the sins of the church, I fully agree. There's a lot of terrible things that have been done in the name of God. Heck, there's been a lot of things done in the name of many gods. But if you think about it, who's sins are they? Man's or God's? Did God really give that king divine right to chop people's heads off? The same God that rights "Don't commit murder" won't make an exception for the man that wears a crown. And the Crusades were incredibly misguided. Jesus wasn't a man of war, he was a man of peace, and the entire goal of the Christian church SHOULD have been so. Sadly, man and sin got in the way, and as a result a lot of people died. There's nothing in the Bible that says "Slaughter the infidels" or "Kings got power to break my rules because they cool like that", instead there's a lot of "turn the other cheek" "love your enemy" and "put others before yourself". A Biblical leader is more of a servant to his people than any woman running the local soup kitchen, or the janitor cleaning your bathrooms. A Biblical leader is the most understanding man in the world, and would not kill people or steal land. Sadly, a lot of leaders in history claimed to be Biblical leaders, but were not.

I agree that the church oppressed science. For a short time and in a small localized area anyway. The late Middle Ages and the Renaissance were certainly hot times if you were the guy with the latest in jump drive technology. You could be killed for it! KNOWLEDGE!!! HISSSSSSSS!!!

I've got two things to say about that. One is that Christians should have been leading the charge for science. After all, what better way to appreciate the wonders of God's creation than by expanding your understanding of it. Without telescopes and satellites we'd never get those INCREDIBLE pictures of the universe that cause even the most stubborn atheists to think twice about divinity. And without microscopes we'd never discover just how incredibly detailed and logical our universe is. Science isn't an attack on religion, if anything it reinforces the fact that the universe was designed rather than random. It's too logical, too ordered, too perfect to be otherwise.

And second, perhaps you should do some research on the oppression of the world against the Christian church. Sure quite a lot of scientists were killed in Europe. But men were crucified, burned alive, beheaded, shot, flayed, and drowned simply because they believe in Jesus' resurrection. Ironically, it was the Jews themselves that dealt out most of this punishment to early Christians. But this oppression still continues today. In China it's still illegal to preach the Word of God (I think I could be wrong). It's illegal in MANY countries. Also, think about how Science oppresses Christianity in America. I would get laughed out of any university just by mentioning Creation Theory, or Flood Theory. And many a philosophy, biology, and psychology professor will treat his/her Christian students like they're slow thinkers, or even downright idiots. I dread the day I ever take a Religions class in a secular college. They eat people like me alive. The antagonism against Christianity in this country is actually very very strong. If the trend keeps up I don't see why that same oppression against scientists couldn't turn around and oppress religion just as badly right here in the US.

Destiny and Choice is a hard nut to crack, mostly because there simply is no answer that we can give. On one hand it seems like there's a lot of destiny in the Bible, on the other there's a lot of choice. Why would God tell us to make choices if we have no choice? How could the same God say he knows what we'll have for breakfast tomorrow? Doesn't His knowledge of what I'll have for breakfast tomorrow mean that I HAVE to have toast and tea for breakfast? While I like toast and tea, I don't like the idea that I HAD to eat it.

This is a question I struggled with a long time. Of course, the answer isn't one that you will like. Atheists don't like answers that they can't understand But really, that's part of faith, understanding that there are certain things we cannot understand. When it comes to the idea of Destiny and Choice, the Bible actually has plenty of room for both. God isn't so weak that he has to limit himself to a timeline. For a being that created time, I don't see why he has to be held accountable to it. Even if he knows that I'll eat toast and tea tomorrow, that doesn't mean I didn't choose to eat it. I could have easily chosen to blow a few dollars on Denny's, and God would have been ok with that.

God gave us choice in the beginning with Adam and Eve. Why would he put the tree there? He could have just done away with it, and there would have been no sin. Sweet huh? However, God gave Adam and Eve a CHOICE to either love God, or disobey God. That's the same choice we're faced with today, and one that's very very hard to make.

After that, there's now only one choice that matters really. God gives each of us a choice to either choose Him or choose ourselves. If we go to Him, then we have a destiny, one that leads in a directed path to Him and his purpose for our lives. A holy destiny if you will. However if we choose ourselves then the only destiny we have is to keep walking in circles until we die. At least we have a choice.

Who DOESN'T like the idea of deism? It's the perfect religion! It's a god that made you, which solves our questions about life. Then it's a god that doesn't mess with your business so that solves our questions about right and wrong. And then it's a god that gives you a free ride to heaven and that solves our questions about death. Easy! Everyone wins! It's very tempting to think this way, since there's no obligations or rules. Just do what you want and you'll be ok.

I have a couple problems with deism. Firstly it neuters God. What kind of god would create something and have it run away with him? Who are we to say "God Can't." Imagine an engineer building a car. He finally puts on the last finishing touches, when suddenly the car springs to life. "Yo dawg, thanks for building me! Now stand back, I got this!" And the engineer can do nothing but watch the car speed off and destroy itself against the nearest wall. Heck no, the engineer wouldn't make a car that could drive itself, the engineer would get behind the wheel himself. This idea is silly because why would an all powerful being suddenly be chained by his own creation? Simply put, he wouldn't.

Deism also robs God of any heart. What kind of God would just sit back and let the world drive itself into the ground? This is an argument many atheists make. The reality is that God often steps in, aiding people and helping them along, shaping people's lives and putting them on the right path. The other reality is that Satan's also there trying to cause as much damage as he can. Don't forget, it's not God that causes the disease and the disasters. It was our choice in the beginning to go "Yo dawg, we got this" and start careening into a world full of sin and evil. So between our own sinful decisions and Satan, we pretty much asked for all this bad stuff to happen. The reason God doesn't step in and save everyone is that it would actually have the wrong effect. First it would rob us of that choice to follow him on faith. Without faith, if God was just in your face all the time, it wouldn't really mean much. It would be a "have to" thing instead of a "want to" thing. And it's important that we CHOOSE to follow him rather than NEED to. That's why God made us to find the idea of destiny repugnant. Choice is very important to God.

Anyway, in the end you're absolutely right, the world is not perfect. It's full of selfish people going out of their way to please themselves, and all they really achieve is a lot of hopelessness and pain for themselves and those around them. This includes Christians and Atheists both. We're all human, and by our nature we're going to screw things up. Man is not born basically good, man is born selfish. He has to learn how to care about others, to love, to be loved, and to make the right choices. If people weren't so selfish, then yes science and faith would go hand in hand. The more we discover the more we learn we don't know anything. That's exciting to me, because that means we'll ALWAYS be learning more. That's cool! I wouldn't like a world where I knew everything. Discovery is too fun for that.

That's my thoughts for now.

Adrian's post was pretty good. All I didn't like was the first sentence. Because it was mean. You don't need to exercise your in-game power on everyone else Adrian. You do that a lot. Not everything you say is important either.
But the rest was very spiritual. I don't have many opinions of god. I'm not atheist. I was baptized. I've never been to church though. I really know nothing about God. He could be a man or a woman. A human or an dog. I recall reading somewhere that in the Bible he was said to have the form of man. Idk, it's kinda not important to me. People who need a belief such as this are too needy for me. They are just looking for another way to explain the world (and their problems). Sorry if this post looks like someone elses. I only read Blinds and Adrians. I didn't even read the intro post.

AdrianRedd wrote:Well now you're just making a fool of yourself Blind. Read the thread first, and don't troll just to inflate your post count.

Well, fuck you.

Blind_Merc wrote:

AdrianRedd wrote:Well now you're just making a fool of yourself Blind. Read the thread first, and don't troll just to inflate your post count.

Well, fuck you.

>Proving his point
Nicely done.

Blind_Merc wrote:

AdrianRedd wrote:Well now you're just making a fool of yourself Blind. Read the thread first, and don't troll just to inflate your post count.

Well, fuck you.

Welcome to my signature.

I'm still thinking right now about religion. Thinking.

thewarthog wrote:My two cents about religion as a Christian is that...
...you can't get something from nothing. No matter how you look at it, some kind of God must have made the world.

Let's take a common theory that the Big Bang started the world. I'm fine with that theory.
...Who started the Big Bang?
If the thing that started the big bang was a condensed version of the universe, then where did that come from?

Not to burst your bubble, but lets play devils advocate.
If a massive minecraft creation style explosion didn't create the universe, and some powerful being, your god, did, then who created or gave birth to god? What created him? And what created what created him? And so on and so forth.

The fact of the matter is, we will never know, this is a subject that, unlike other subjects, can NOT be answered with science. God, explosion, flying spaghetti monster even. All these things, had to of come from somewhere.

Since we all seem to be mainly mature about this, and we accept each others beliefs. I thought I would put in what I feel. Now I dont want people to think I am attacking them, and I respect their beliefs and will never try to force my beliefs on them. This is just a couple of things that I think really doesn't work in God's favor. Don't get me wrong, I believe in a higher being, just not the God the church portrays in a book written by man.

AdrianRedd wrote:
But if you think about it, who's sins are they? Man's or God's?

If you really think about it, God is the one who caused it. You have a being that loves his children, but allows them to commit such atrocities, and yet he does nothing. He has the power to stop all evil, but he doesn't. Why? That is a question that always sways my beliefs. Some say that we wouldnt have free will if God only allowed us to be good. If that is the case, then I dont want free will. If I have a higher chance of going to a place where I will be tortured and burned forever, and a slim chance I go to a place where I dont, all because of free will. He is our father yet he would allow his children to go to such a place and do such horrible things.

Also, why choose to live? If I was given the choice of being born on this Earth and having even the slightest chance of burning in a pit of fire forever, I would rather not be born, but I wasn't given that choice. I feel better when I think that there is a higher being out there, but he has no plan for us. We live and die. Thats it, no more after that. But for some people that isn't right. All those people that have done such bad things should not be left off so easy. No, they have to go to someplace where they suffer, but that makes them just as bad. They find it pleasing that someone will burn forever.

What about the other cultures around the world? There were civilizations developing in Europe, Asia, and the Americas, but God never came to them. What is it that makes the Middle East so special that what prophecies came out of that land makes it the truth and the will of God? Are the people in Asia, Europe, and the Americas going to burn in Hell? It doesnt make sense to me.

Thats all I have to say, thank you for reading this.

Actually when I first saw this thread I thought it was doomed from the start. The fact that the community can discuss something like this which usually ends up in an instant flame fest on every other forum I know is quite impressive.

My opinion though is the fact you can't prove it, so, honestly, neither side is right or wrong. I don't really mind what people believe in as long as it fits the bill.

one of these days i will be wise enough to completely avoid these discussions but it would seem i am not there yet. if there is a "god", and i use that term loosely, there are 2 options for what the said god is. option one the god is a higher being that created the first sparks of life, or perhaps the universe and moved on leaving life to its own devices. Option 2 is your god, assuming that you believe in one of the major western religions (christanity, islam, judasim), is a monster unparalleled by any of the savagery mankind seems to be capable of. I admit that my knowledge of the koren is a bit lacking, but i'm almost positive it does not deviate from the other 2 that much. These books that people look to for moral guidance, contain some of the most grotesque edicts i have ever seen. they condone slavery, are wildly sexist, advocate murder, and are downright brutal. since i only have the new testament atm i'll give you some cheery examples of the fantastic things it preaches. it actualy does say you are to kill homosexuals. another passage commands you to kill anyone working on the sabbath day. in yet another one it says you are to stone disobedient children to death. there are all kinds of rules on slavery, none that i have found that actually says its not ok. the whole concept of the exodus story is just downright sickening, god being the all around great being it is decides that because of the mis deeds of a few that a great many innocent people are to be slaughter including children. the flood story is particularly brutal when you think about it, once again another story of mass murder on part of this god. if you think the bible is the word of god, you can't pick and choose what word of god to follow.

holy books seem to have any overall theme of choosing what they want you to do, or you shall suffer for all eternity. i mean that is completely fair right. these things are instilled in youth from a very young age, and the fear of suffering beyond imagination are hard for an adolescent mind to ignore. people like to talk about the great moral compass that the bible is but on the days when your pasture is not talking about the feel good moral rules all humans can agree on, he/she is telling you of all the bad things that happen to you when you don't follow "his" word.

i feel that religion is used to misguide people into thinking they can't get threw hard times without the help of the divine, which is something i take major issue with. some people feel that without the help of their god they cannot overcome the hard obstacles in life. they will often time give credit solely to their god instead of themselves and their family and friends. religion has used this against people throughout history to misguide their followers into horrible mis deeds, and a veneration for their god above all others.

if you believe that there is a god and it is active in our lives and created all life, never forget that it created all the evil and disease on this planet. children are born with terminal cancer only to suffer for months sometimes years before a painful death. it is the reason for human nature along with our savage ways, for making lifeforms forced to feed on other lifeforms to survive. ooh yeah and any natural disasters it also managed to add that in to complete this paradise. i can't accept that such a wise, pure, and all knowing god would do such a thing.

your gods would have me suffer for eternity, no matter my deeds in life, simply for not worshiping them. if i died saving the lives of children, guess what its straight to hell for me. I do the right things, not because i fear damnation, but because i believe it is right. if i died went to heaven and found out that the "god" of the bible is in fact "god" i would willing choose to suffer for all eternity because i will never follow someone that murders innocences for petty reasons, and i would not believe it to be a "god"